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Committee Members - Josh A.(Eggsworth), JCO, Brad Johnson

This committee is responsible for bringing out the possibilities of how beautiful Atlas can be while integrating state of the art technology creating the most advanced city ever conceived.
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TOPIC: Zones !! (????)

Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2686

  • prometheuspan
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okay. you know, i will add some files fer sure. let me do it this way. I will
look through things and organize up some and get back to you mostly.

Still sort of waiting also on a response... IE...

You know what i have is a work in progress...i'm not asking for collaboration
for now reason myself? ya know?

I mean, I'm doing the best i can which is going to be pretty kewl but whats
really needed is everybody working on it together.

Ideas ... more ideas...

Which brings me back to the topic at hand to move forward which is zones.


There will be prolly these and others;

1. Residential zone
2. Geothermal Power Zone
3. School+ Hospital + Office Zone
4. Agriculture Zone
5. Parks Zone
6. Aquaculture Zone
7. Hydroponics Zone
8. Permaculture Demo Zone
9. Mining + Masonry Zone
10. Metal Smith + Machine Shops Zone
11. Conveyor Belts + Robot Arms Zone
12. Solar Power zone
13. Wind Power zone

These have to be linked by;

1. Energy grid
2. Steam (steam Plumbing)grid
3. Hot Water Plumbing)
4. Cold Water Plumbing
5. Foot and Bike traffic sidewalk system
6. Boat and recreational traffic system
7. Bullet train subway system
8. Bullet Cable Car System



www.google.com/images?rlz=1C1SKPC_enUS336US364&q=permaculture+zones&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=GrcKTMetFpj4MN3SobYE&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDMQsAQwAw



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How to Use Zone Analysis
in Permaculture Landscape Design

In Permaculture landscape design, zones describe an energy efficient master pattern for your site based on conserving the energy of its components people, machines, wastes and fuels.

Along with sector analysis, which is consideration of energies flowing through your site from outside, resource efficient design is achieved.

Such purposeful efficiency is essential to self sufficiency and sustainable living. websites on self sufficiency

An appropriate placement pattern locates your components in efficient energetic relationship within prescribed zones with respect to frequency of use, access and time. energy organic farming gardening permaculture

The more frequent the visits, the closer the component needs to be to your site’s main activity centre. The number of visits will depend on how often the component needs your attention, in addition to how often you need to visit it to access its yields.

Consider the hen house:permaculture landscape design

How many times would you visit it in a year? With daily egg collection and feeding, weekly watering, monthly manure collection, and occasional culling, annual visits could easily exceed 450.

By contrast, a fodder hedge might only be attended eight times a year to cut and throw over the fence for dry season livestock feed. permaculture landscape design

So where should each sit within your site plan?

The concept of Permaculture zones suggests sensible placement for all elements in your system.



how write sustainability plan
While adaptation to your actual site is never quite so neat in reality, Permaculture zones can be thought of as a series of concentric circles radiating out from the site’s activity centre.

Zone Zero: The Homezone 0 permaculture permaculture landscape design

Frequent daily visits - The innermost circle, or Zone 0, represents the focal point of activity in the system. In a small farm this is usually the home. It is the “hottest” area of human activity, symbolized in our diagram by the color red!

If we are going to achieve energy efficiencies it makes sense to place those elements of our system that must be visited the most often within Zone 0: the house, attached glasshouse or shadehouse, as well as house integrated living components such as pergola-trained vines, potted plants and companion animals.

Zone One: The Home Garden

Regular daily visits - Within 6 meters (20 feet) or so of the house, in Zone 1, should be placed those elements that require close observation, frequent visiting, high work input or continual complex techniques.

The aim of Zone 1 is to yield household self-sufficiency and climate control for the home. Zone 1 is also the first Zone that should be developed on your site:

Start at the back door and work out from there!

Once you have Zone 1 fenced and under control you will be providing much of your needs, as well as having established a pleasant living environment for yourself and your family.

And so, elements such as rainwater tanks, the lemon tree, other dwarf or espalier-grown multi-graft fruit trees, chicken laying boxes, small ponds, culinary herbs, worm farm for recycling of household wastes, intensive, fully mulched vegetable beds of quick growing annuals, seedling raising areas, and small, quiet domestic animals like fish, rabbits and pigeons can be kept very close at hand within the home garden. permaculture landscape design

Zone Two: The Home Orchard

Attended every few days - Zone 2 is a little less intensively managed. Suitable elements to place here are spot mulched home orchards, longer cycle vegetables, main crop beds (for trading), and forage ranges for closely managed livestock such as poultry and milking goats or cows. Since they are visited daily for milking, feeding and supervising, the livestock and poultry shelters of Zone 2 often adjoin Zone 1. This Zone may be extended along frequently used paths through more outlying zones.

Zone Three: The Farmdifferent methods of self sufficiency

Attended weekly to monthly - Broader scale commercial crops, and animals raised for trade, along with natural trees, dams, windbreaks and barns belong. This area is managed with soil conditioning, green manure crops and manure from Zone 2.

Zone Four: Managed Forestenvironment and lifestyle sustainability

Attended infrequently - Hardy, self-care forests and woodlots that are visited infrequently for wood collection, log harvest and wild harvest belong in far flung corners of the property, and can act as buffers to protect Zone 5 wilderness areas. It may also be used occasionally to pasture animals.

Zone Five: Wildernesswhat is good life style

Visited occasionally for recreation and appreciation - This is the component of the site left for nature. It comprises natural forest and native remnant and rehabilitated flora and fauna and can be linked to the home garden by a wildlife corridor extension.permaculture landscape design

The Zone concept can be applied equally well for the planning of neighborhoods, farming communities, schools and institutions; in fact, any human system. permaculture landscape design

Permaculture landscape design for sustainable living achieves resource and energy efficiency through such zone analysis to conserve internal energies, combined with a optimization of external energies using Sector Analysis.

www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.small-farm-permaculture-and-sustainable-living.com/images/permaculture_zones.GIF&imgrefurl=http://www.small-farm-permaculture-and-sustainable-living.com/permaculture_zones.html&usg=__JCAEdTtVvOGuBGFPQHjfBcMQtN4=&h=402&w=426&sz=11&hl=en&start=1&sig2=sRTbQ-sVrPAMf8_mXOQeHg&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=LZrDvYy9EdFySM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522permaculture%2Bzones%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG%26rlz%3D1C1SKPC_enUS336US364%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=RLcKTLu4JoXWNrLZgLoK
Last Edit: 1 year, 11 months ago by prometheuspan.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2687

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www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.permacultureactivist.net/articles/zones_sectors.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.permacultureactivist.net/articles/urbnzonsectr.htm&usg=__1qWZE3quMZllbOcZGOXCH4mcu-E=&h=367&w=466&sz=23&hl=en&start=11&sig2=gOIu0p5dLHd6G6qG6PEh9w&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=IsuKEljkljhnBM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpermaculture%2Bzones%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1C1SKPC_enUS336US364%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=5bcKTKnRF4myMM_8-bUE

www.theurbanfarmer.ca/permaculture_essentials.html


What is Permaculture?

Permaculture is an approach to designing landscapes that works with nature rather than against nature. Permaculture seeks to create beautiful living systems that provide food (and other essentials) for people in sustainable ways.

Permaculture was “founded” in Australia by Bill Mollison and David Holmgren in the 1970’s. It combines age-old indigenous wisdom with new insights emerging from movements for sustainability around the world. Permaculture is a dynamic, eclectic, and creative discipline now happening world-wide.

Permaculture is based on the following three ethical principles:

Care of the earth
Care of the people
Sharing the surplus
Some Key Permaculture Principles

Observation – One must have a clear understanding of their immediate environment and the surrounding bio-region to create appropriate designs. Micro-climates (warmth, sun, moisture etc.) and other unique features of an area can be discovered and used to enhance the design.
Native Plants – Since native plants are bested adapted to and integrated within the local ecology, they are preferred over exotic plants. However, carefully selected “exotic” plants can and should be used for particular purposes such as food production when there are no equivalent native species.
Perennial Plants – Where possible, perennial plants are favoured over annuals as they can become long term members of an urban plant community and generally require less labour and resources than annuals. In addition to the many species of fruit, berries, nuts, and herbs that do well in Edmonton, there are also numerous perennial greens that can be harvested throughout the growing season to be eaten in salads, soups, stews etc.. Annual vegetables and herbs, however, also have an important place in an urban permaculture system.
Relationships – Plants in a permaculture design are carefully selected and situated for the relationships they will have with other plants and other elements in the system. Diverse plants with diverse relationships are desired. These relationships will create a “synergistic” effect, creating a thriving ecological community.
Elements – All elements of a permaculture design will have multiple functions. For example, a selected tree may provide shade for a sitting area, berries for food, habitat for birds, screening of an undesirable view, and may build the soil by fixing nitrogen, thereby supporting the plants grown around it.
Functions – All functions are supported by multiple elements. For example, food will come from many plants, not just one or two. Many different plants will be used to attract a variety of pollinators and other beneficial insects. Water will be harvested and retained in a variety of ways, thereby reducing demand on city water and ensuring that the system will continue to thrive during times of drought.
Zones – As a tool for site analysis and planning, permaculture considers every system to be comprised of five “zones”. In brief, “Zone 1” is closest to the house and includes those elements that are needed most on a day to day basis (i.e. kitchen herbs and vegetables) . Zones progress away from the house to less intensively cultivated or harvested elements all the way to Zone 5” which is “wildland” left for birds and other local wildlife.
Resource Use – Permaculture systems strive to use as few external “inputs” as possible and to produce as little “waste” as possible. Natural resources such as sunlight and water are absorbed and maintained within the system as long s possible. Composting and mulching are used extensively to maintain and increase soil fertility. When outside “inputs” are required, they are preferably sourced as locally as possible and are ideally “waste” from the surrounding environment.
Stacking – Plants incorporated into a permaculture landscape are “stacked” both in space and in time. Plants will be chosen to occupy the following 7 layers; below ground (i.e root crops), ground cover, herbaceous plants, shrubs, small trees, tall trees, and vines. Similarly, thought should be given into the long term development of the landscape over time, ensuring that the system will be thriving many years from now.
Home-Scale Examples of Permaculture

Permaculture is just as relevant and useful for the city-dweller as it for a small farmer or alternative community. Some very basic examples of how permaculture principles and design can be used in the urban setting include:

Water Harvesting – Collecting run-off water from roofs, redirecting it to trees, shrubs and beds, and storing it in rain barrels for later use is an easy, economical and highly beneficial practice. Water can be further retained within the home landscape by using mulches, close plantings and by ensuring a high level of organic matter in the soil.
Perennial Plants for Food – Most urban dwellers equate growing food with a square vegetable patch in the back corner of the yard. Nothing could be further from the truth! There are abundant possibilities for growing a tremendous amount of food-producing perennial plants in cities like Edmonton. Fruits, berries, nuts, perennial herbs and perennial greens can all be included in an urban permaculture landscape.
Composting and Mulching – There is no substitute for home grown compost! Intensive composting allows for the recycling of resources within one’s permaculture system and contributes greatly to soil fertility, structure and long term sustainability. Specialized composting techniques such as “sheet mulching” can facilitate the generation of larger amounts of compost within the growing beds themselves. Regular surface mulching also contributes organic matter to the soil, retains moisture, inhibits weed growth and reduces soil erosion and soil compaction.
Use of Microclimates – City dwellers are blessed with numerous microclimates within their own yards. South facing walls, for example, can provide an excellent location for heat loving plants like grapes, tomatoes, or peppers and can also be good locations for extending the growing season. Lettuce and other greens, for example, sown in a passive cold frame on the south side of a house can produce a harvest in late March or early April and as late in the season as the end of November or early December. Microclimates can also be created, by such techniques as mounding up soil for an herb spiral which will have both hot and cool, wet and dry microclimates as well as creating additional surface area in the same amount of space.
Plant Selections and Placement – While the post card picture of suburbia includes a large lush lawn with 3-4 shrubs, 2 trees and a couple of flower beds, urbanites are discovering that their own yards provides them with enough space to incorporate many diverse plant species. In the permaculture design approach, all of these plants will have a particular purpose and will be placed in careful relationship with other plants.

A “nitrogen-fixing” caraganna hedge, for example, might be placed on the north side of a yard to provide a windbreak for the home, some privacy and a “heat trap” for tomatoes placed on its south side. The tomatoes will benefit from the nitrogen provided by the carragana and will also enjoy higher rates of pollination thanks to the number of bees that are attracted to the carragana flowers. The carragana hedge can in turn be cut (at least once per season as it is a very fast grower) to provide material for the compost pile. There are countless other inter-relationships like this that can be designed into an urban permaculture system.
Forest Gardens – Mature forests occupy all available space with lush growth. “Forest gardens” model themselves after natural forest eco-systems but focus on plants that provide food, medicines and other resources. Urban yards can also take advantage of the possibilities of using vertical space to make up for what they lack in horizontal space. All 7 layers (root, ground cover, herb layer, shrubs, mall trees, large trees, vines) can be occupied by plants that offer not only beauty but food, medicine, or other benefits as well. When appropriately designed for a particular bio-region, forest gardens provide an abundance of food in a way that is self-perpetuating, self-fertilizing, self-mulching, self-watering, self-pollinating and highly resistant to disease. The following article by forest garden pioneer, Robert Hart provides an excellent summary of designing forest gardens for urban areas: www.risc.org.uk/garden/roberthart.html. For a listing of hardy plants for forest gardens in our climate, link to Plants for Edible Forest Gardens in Alberta.
For additional information on the growing world-wide permaculture movement, follow the links to these websites:

Permaculture Magazine
British Permaculture Association
The Permaculture Activist
Permaculture International
Kootenay Permaculture Institute
The Permaculture Portal
ATTRA Introduction to Permaculture
A Permaculture Primer

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2705

  • prometheuspan
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anybody know what i am talking about here?

we need to decide on our zone use and layout?

thats the first step to making a city layout plan.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2729

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I'm not sure what exactly your getting at. We have agriculture split up into a few sections already. Aquaponics for home use, vertical farming for our general city and hotel use, and fruit barring trees/bushes throughout the residential zones for ease and to not need a speciallized zone for these foods. What else were you asking?
"A Dream you dream Alone, is a Dream you dream Alone; But a Dream you dream Together becomes Reality." Raul Seixas

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2744

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its clear you don't know what permaculture zones are and also clear that you aren't prepared to engage in serious design process.

rather than spew more annoyance, I will just list a set of zones which I imagine that will be needed.

1. Residential
2. Agricultural
3. Office
4. School/Hospital
5. Mine + Masonry
6. Extrusion + Machine Shop
7. Conveyor + Robot Arm Assembly
8. Geothermal
9. Solar
10. Windmills
11. Recreational #1;Parks
12. Recreational #2;Rubber Jungle (gymn) (playground for adults with say paintballs)
13. Recreational #3 Ponds and creeks
14. aquaculture
15. Mass Transit; Rapid Cable Car
16. Mass Transit; Bullet Train
17. Amphitheater + Agora Social areas
18. Mall + Industrial output.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2752

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I was trying to understand, but am in no mood for moody responses. Looks like you talking about many different sections that are described in several sections on the forums. We have research and committee organizations for a good portion of what is listed below. That's all I'm going to say on this subject without a peaceful explanation.
"A Dream you dream Alone, is a Dream you dream Alone; But a Dream you dream Together becomes Reality." Raul Seixas

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2784

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I have been moody lately and this is why I stepped away from things for a few days.

I think the explanation is very simple. I'm frustrated because The conversation isn't happening. No matter which of these groups I go to I pour in time and energy and I still feel like I am talking to a wall.

On your side, is obvious you didn't read the thread before responding to it,
or you wouldn't be asking questions that the links answer.

So your choosing to not pay attention.

What more can i do? I just said everything you needed to know to continue but you made a choice to give it 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes.

The result is theres nothing to say or talk about.

You don't know anything about zones and you won't until you choose to read up about them. I'm not going to add more information or keep tossing pearls in where the pearls are just getting lost under lack of attention.

Yes, I could handle that better. No, I'm not handling it better.

For my part, I apologize.



I'm not sure what exactly your getting at.


Try reading the links and thinking it through.


We have agriculture split up into a few sections already. Aquaponics for home use, vertical farming for our general city and hotel use, and fruit barring trees/bushes throughout the residential zones for ease and to not need a speciallized zone for these foods. What else were you asking?


What are the zones, what will we put into those zones, how will we plan for growth inside of those zones, what kinds of buildings will we put in each zone?

The obvious questions, numbering 20 or so, which I shouldn't have to ask because they are and should be self evident.
Last Edit: 1 year, 11 months ago by prometheuspan.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2816

the question is, are we really going to be having zones? if we make a building big enough, it could act as, say, all of our agricultural production.

you could consider power to be a zone, with various energy capturing methods involved within it.

For example, one for solar, one with wind, maybe a solar/thermal plant. the truth is, we haven't committed to any one particular building yet because we are still in a conceptual stage.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2828

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the answer is, even if you have one building as a zone, yes, you will have zones.

This should not be new to you and this should not be something even to discuss.

This is how design works, this is how it goes. First you decide on zones and then you integrate them together and that gives you a vague map of the whole thing.

the truth is, we haven't committed to any one particular building yet because we are still in a conceptual stage.


Whats actually true is your running in circles. None of you has the education
which would make this real. Instead of self educating your co-dreaming,

and its all made of dream vapor.

If you want to get beyond that then you will need to buckle down.

If this was a real life business situation, you all would have flunked out
and I'd be impossible now to hire.

Pull it together.

Not having settled on any buildings is not a problem. Not even having the first clue how to start designing a building or dealing with an architect...

those are fatal flaws.

As I have stated elsewhere, you start working with the architect by telling them what you want the building to do, how many people it will house, what they will do inside the building, the sizes and shapes of the rooms.

Then the architect stacks all of that together.

Similarly, you start designing a city by defining its zones. That you could be months or years into this and not know that is frankly depressing.

I'm trying here to be supportive and I am probably failing on my end.

I love you guys and I love your vision. Please pull it together.
Last Edit: 1 year, 11 months ago by prometheuspan.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2836

  • ChaseD702
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Frankly Prometheus, I'm getting a little fazed out by your constant put downs and criticism. Please work on wording things in a more polite way. There is no reason we can't all work together and learn from each other. If we don't know something we will try to. The extensive use of "you obviously don't know this", "you should know this by now", etc., is not helping anyone.
"A Dream you dream Alone, is a Dream you dream Alone; But a Dream you dream Together becomes Reality." Raul Seixas

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2841

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I'm sorry. I don't mean to be a downer.

Theres really no good way to do this.


The easy way would be for you guys to start in with a design process.

Failing that, all i can do is point out why it isn't happening.

Or walk away.


It can hurt now as I point out that things are not quite up to par- Or it can hurt more later when somebody else stops by and points out that things aren't going well- without offering the solutions.

As the buddhists point out suffering is caused by our attachments.

The attachments here are numerous, but the first one to point out is that
you have the idea collectively that you are prepared to design a new city.
You aren't.

You all haven't done the kind of self education which would take you down that path.

Now, it can hurt less as i point that out and then we make a real improvement and become ready and able and competent to codesign cities...

or it can hurt more later when you still don't have a city designed 10 years from now.


If it feels like I'm starting to crack a whip, or be impatient, thats because I am.


Jagged little pill now or death by ignorance later.

Its a sucky choice to have to make but at least you get to make it.

You can run in circles forever with the way you have been doing this- And never actually design a city- Or you can have somebody show up and point out what real design is like and how it works- and then start doing that.


What you have to realize is that I have only my time and energy to invest,
to either help you or find out that you can't be helped.

If the latter, I'd like to know sooner rather than later.

Its your choice.

Fine, I'm being a prick. Again, I apologize. Some times, the only way to be nice to people is to be as mean to them as you have to be in order to get them awake and lucid.

Re:Zones !! (????) 1 year, 11 months ago #2859

ok if you want to talk zones, here are some zones I can think of off the top of my head that we will need

housing
industrial (manufacturing)
agricultural
electricity production
distribution
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