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The Stages of Economic Independance
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TOPIC: The Stages of Economic Independance

The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 10 months ago #3415

  • ChaseD702
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Stages of Economic Independence

Often, when I mention building a city that doesn’t have an internal monetary system people will ask “Without money, how will you build it?”. It takes a while to explain everything, and by then they usually loose interest or think it will never occur. From now on I’m just going to say we are exploring the stages of economic independence. This idea loosely bases economic freedom to Michio Kaku’s stages of civilization.

Stage 0- This is a level of slavery. Few rule the world and everyone else works until the day they die to support the elite. The is what we still live in, and have for the entirety of human social structure. It is perpetuated by fear, ignorance and manipulation of facts.

Stage 1- Economic freedom of the individual has occurred. The closest to this stage in existence would be an individual living off the grid. This could be an off the grid home, or live in the wilderness. This is only made possible when the individual has the knowledge and freedom to survive by themselves and off the land. All industrialized nations have neither the freedom nor wilderness knowledge to do this.

Stage 2- Some societies have reached Stage 1. This allows for a greater number of products and work to be done then an individual could alone as in Stage 1. Societies share knowledge and produce. This stage, however, is not likely to exist for long. Historically, when this stage is achieved a backwards step is taken. The society ends up using barter and trade and becomes, once again, a Stage 0 society. This circular motion has been proven time and time again throughout the worlds history.

Stage 3- Stage 3 is the extended and prolonged version of Stage 2. By now, economic freedom has become worldwide and lasted for a length of time that proves this stage is possible and not just a passing fad. It has the benefits of multiple minds, strengths and populations working on projects together and without restraint.

A true RBE would be the start of a Stage 3 society (as far as economic independence), but it would require a worldwide spread to become an actualized Stage 3. Unfortunately, we are stuck in this hideous loop of the first few stages. Occasionally, an individual or small group of people will try to get out of Stage 0 (communes, eco-villages), but they are too small and primitive to become a Stage 2 society. Any society that becomes large enough, and suffers from the greedy notion of supply and demand, eventually think their product is more important. Thus, they want trade or barter to make it worth their time. By doing so, they have established their own demise and fall back to Stage 0.
"A Dream you dream Alone, is a Dream you dream Alone; But a Dream you dream Together becomes Reality." Raul Seixas

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 10 months ago #3420

chase this is a really interesting way of looking at this topic.

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 10 months ago #3429

  • prometheuspan
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

The iron law of oligarchy is a political theory, first developed by the German syndicalist sociologist Robert Michels in his 1911 book, Political Parties. It states that all forms of organization, regardless of how democratic or autocratic[citation needed] they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop into oligarchies. The reasons for this are the technical indispensability of leadership, the tendency of the leaders to organize themselves and to consolidate their interests; the gratitude of the led towards the leaders; and the general immobility and passivity of the masses.
Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Reasons
3 Implications
4 Examples and exceptions
5 Criticism
6 See also
7 Notes
8 References
9 Further reading
10 External links
[edit]History

Robert Michels was disturbed to find that, paradoxically, the socialist parties of Europe, despite their democratic ideology and provisions for mass participation, seemed to be dominated by their leaders, just like the traditional conservative parties.
Studying political parties, he concluded that the problem lay in the very nature of organizations. Modern democracy allowed the formation of organizations such as political parties, but as such organizations grew in complexity, they became less and less democratic. Michels formulated the "Iron Law of Oligarchy": "Who says organization, says oligarchy."[1][2]
At the time Michels formulated his Law, he was an anarcho-syndicalist.[2] He later became an important ideologue of Benito Mussolini's fascist regime in Italy.[citation needed]
[edit]Reasons

Michels stressed several factors that underlie the Iron Law of Oligarchy. Darcy K. Leach summarized them briefly as: "Bureaucracy happens. If bureaucracy happens, power rises. Power corrupts."[2]
Any large organization, Michels pointed out, is faced with problems of coordination that can be solved only by creating a bureaucracy. A bureaucracy, by design, is hierarchically organized to achieve efficiency—many decisions have to be made daily that cannot efficiently be made by large numbers of people. The effective functioning of an organization therefore requires the concentration of much power in the hands of a few. Those few, in turn—the oligarchy—will use all means necessary to preserve and further increase their power.[1][2]
This process is further compounded, as delegation is necessary in any large organization, as thousands—sometimes hundreds of thousands—of members cannot make decisions via participatory democracy. This has been dictated by the lack of technological means for large numbers of people to meet and debate, and also by matters related to crowd psychology, as Michels argued that people feel a need to be led. Delegation, however, leads to specialization—to the development of knowledge bases, skills and resources among a leadership—which further alienates the leadership from the rank and file and entrenches the leadership in office.
Bureaucratization and specialization are the driving processes behind the Law. They create a specialized group of administrators in a hierarchical organization, which in turn leads to the rationalization and routinization of authority and decision-making, a process described first and perhaps best by Max Weber, later by John Kenneth Galbraith, and to a lesser and more cynical extent by the Peter Principle.
The organizational characteristics that promote oligarchy are reinforced by certain characteristics of both leaders and members of organizations. People achieve leadership positions precisely because they have unusual political skill; they are adept at getting their way and persuading others of the correctness of their views (see charismatic authority). Once they hold high office, their power and prestige is further increased. Leaders have access to, and control over, information and facilities that are not available to the rank-and-file. They control the information that flows down the channels of communication. Leaders are also strongly motivated to persuade the organization of the rightness of their views, and they use all of their skills, power and authority to do so.[1]
By design of the organization, rank and file are less informed than their "superiors." Finally, from birth, people are taught to obey those in positions of authority. Therefore the rank and file tend to look to leaders for policy directives and are generally prepared to allow leaders to exercise their judgment on most matters.
Leaders also have control over all very powerful negative and positive sanctions to promote the behavior that they so do desire. They have the power to grant or deny raises, assign workloads, fire, demote and — that most gratifying of all sanctions — the power to promote. Most important, they tend to promote junior officials who share their opinions, with the result that the oligarchy becomes self-perpetuating. Therefore the very nature of large-scale organization makes oligarchy within these organizations inevitable. Bureaucracy, by design, promotes the centralization of power in the hands of those at the top of the organization.[1]
[edit]Implications

The "iron law of oligarchy" states that all forms of organization, regardless of how democratic or autocratic[citation needed] they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop oligarchic tendencies, thus making true democracy practically and theoretically impossible, especially in large groups and complex organizations. The relative structural fluidity in a small-scale democracy succumbs to "social viscosity" in a large-scale organization. According to the "iron law," democracy and large-scale organization are incompatible.
Robert Struble, Jr. argues, however, that a rapid rotation in office can mitigate, or even nullify, the "iron law" in the legislatures/parliaments of large nations.[3]
[edit]Examples and exceptions

An example that Michels used in his book was Germany's Social Democratic Party.[2]
The size and complexity of a group or organization is important to the Iron Law as well. During the 1970s and early 1980s, the Green Party of Germany made a conscious effort to try and break the Iron Law.[4] Anyone could be or could remove a party official. There were no permanent offices or officers. Even the smallest, most routine decisions could be put up for discussion and to a vote. When the party was small, these anti-oligarchic measures enjoyed some success. But as the organization grew larger and the party became more successful, the need to effectively compete in elections, raise funds, run large rallies and demonstrations and work with other political parties once elected, led the Greens to adapt more conventional structures and practices.
One of the best known exceptions to the iron law of oligarchy was the now defunct International Typographical Union, described by Seymour Martin Lipset in his 1956 book, Union Democracy.[5]
Lipset suggests a number of factors that existed in the ITU that are allegedly responsible for countering this tendency toward bureaucratic oligarchy. The first and perhaps most important has to do with the way the union was founded. Unlike many other unions (e.g., the CIO's United Steel Workers of America, USWA, and numerous other craft unions) which were organized from the top down, the ITU had a number of large, strong, local unions who valued their autonomy, which existed long before the international was formed. This local autonomy was strengthened by the economy of the printing industry which operated in largely local and regional markets, with little competition from other geographical areas. Large locals continued to jealously guard this autonomy against encroachments by international officers. Second, the existence of factions helped place a check on the oligarchic tendencies that existed at the national headquarters. Leaders that are unchecked tend to develop large salaries and a more affluent lifestyle that makes them unwilling to go back to their previous jobs. With a powerful out faction ready to expose profligacy, no leaders dared create sumptuous personal remuneration. These two factors are quite compelling.
Lipset and his collaborators also cite a number of other factors which are specific to craft unions in general and the printing crafts in particular, including the homogeneity of the membership, with respect to their work and lifestyles, their identification with their craft, their more middle class lifestyle and pay. For this latter point he draws upon Aristotle who argued that a democratic polity was most likely where there was a large, stable middle class, and the extremes of wealth and poverty were not great. Finally, the authors note the irregular work hours which led shopmates to spend more of their leisure time together. These latter factors are less persuasive, since they do not apply to many industrial forms of organization, where the greatest amount of trade union democracy has developed in recent times.[6]
[edit]Criticism

Critics have challenged the iron law of oligarchy and its underlying assumptions. Orthodox Marxists[who?] dispute whether increasing bureaucracy means increased power for the bureaucrats.[citation needed] Others[who?] questioned whether power corrupts and leadership becomes unaccountable to the masses. Some[who?] have also claimed that small organizations with little bureaucracy should be able to avoid the iron law, which Michels claimed is unavoidable for all organizations.[2]
[edit]See also

Coordinatorism
Iron law of institutions
Public Choice
[edit]Notes

^ a b c d Frank W. Elwell, Max Weber's Home Page "A site for undergraduates" at Rogers State University]. Last accessed on 27 May 2006
^ a b c d e f Darcy K. Leach, The Iron Law of What Again? Conceptualizing Oligarchy Across Organizational Forms, Sociological Theory, Volume 23, Number 3, September 2005 , pp. 312-337(26). IngentaConnect
^ Robert Struble, Jr., Treatise on Twelve Lights, (TeLL, inc., 2005, 2009), chapter seven, "Rotation in Office".
^ Whatever happened to the German Greens? - Red Pepper
^ Citation Classics Commentary on Union DemocracyPDF (254 KiB), Seymour Martin Lipset, 20/1988. Last accessed on 16th September 2006
^ Lipset's Union Democracy After 40 Years

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 10 months ago #3430

  • prometheuspan
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the only way out is to balance both social services and a market system on the fulcrum of genuine democracy. If the balance falls off in one direction, you get socialism, the other direction, corporatism. Right now we live in a corporate oligarchy, a failed democracy, which succumbed to the law as early as the declaration of independence.

We have never been a true democracy, and "republic" is just oligarchy-lite.

I explained some of this on TZM, but it went over most peoples heads.

You can't get to "money less" society by having that as a goal. It happens as a biproduct of achieving a true balance.

To achieve the balance requires a market system, one that works for and with
and in service to democracy instead of the Elites.

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 10 months ago #3437

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> To achieve the balance requires a market system, one that works for and
> with and in service to democracy instead of the Elites.

Agreed.

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 10 months ago #3453

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Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 9 months ago #3548

  • ah_tee84
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so does the following work? in 1 country has the following :

2 president
2 federal bank
2 vice president

giant corporation has 2 chairman, etc etc..

everything/anyone which seems to be influential/powerful will have 2? lol

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 9 months ago #3551

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what?

we were ...what??

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 9 months ago #3552

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no.

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 9 months ago #3553

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I would imagine you'd need at least 3 to avoid deadlock situations.

(EOS/NET has 2, which is an improvement on 1, but I think 3 is better, but then you do need the bodies so to speak to make up the numbers and the problem is often one of finding staff, especially competent ones..)

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 9 months ago #3558

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You optimize the real energy potential in any system where you increase the
democratic principle.

The only sound system is a sufficiently large genuinely democratic one.

for leaders, the best model would be congress or senate. That is a broken system. Imagine a system like it where every one thousand persons had one
direct representative and each one of them had and could trade time shares with each other to have direct access conversation with that representative.

So the USA has 300 million or so depending on how you count, which gives us
300,000 Virtual Senators.

Those people should achieve that status by having multiple degrees in the following assorted fields; Sociology, Civil Engineering, Ergonomics, Political Science, Diplomacy, Formal Logic, Permaculture...Energy Science..

And they should be responsible mostly for designing new buildings, civilization as a whole, and etc in a very different way than they are now;
like "city planners" cut "Civilization" planners instead.

It isn't about writing laws, its about building civilization.

Backing away slowly from false hierarchy and fascism is insane. Run. Run fast.
Run all the way away from "presidents" and specific numbered oligarchic systems.

Re:The Stages of Economic Independance 1 year, 9 months ago #3583

  • ChaseD702
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It seems you guys are talking about what we already have through the Oversight Committee, which is 5 members.
"A Dream you dream Alone, is a Dream you dream Alone; But a Dream you dream Together becomes Reality." Raul Seixas
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